modern love essay rosenthal

What a Modern Love essay by his late wife taught Jason Rosenthal about grief — and love

Amy krouse rosenthal's viral story about her husband served as a love letter and a personals ad.

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In the weeks before her death, Amy Krouse Rosenthal wrote an essay titled You May Want to Marry My Husband.

That piece , published as part of the New York Times' Modern Love column, served as a personals ad for her husband.

The author's loving description of her husband, and her honest acknowledgement of what she'll miss about him, struck a chord with millions readers.

Now, the subject of that essay, Jason Rosenthal, has published a memoir from his perspective, aptly titled My Wife Said You May Want to Marry Me.

Jason Rosenthal spoke with The Current's Matt Galloway about grieving his late wife and finding love after her death.

Here is part of that conversation.

What do you remember about what was going on in your life and in your house when she [Amy] was writing that piece?

That was the last piece of writing that she really wanted to finish.... Obviously her diagnosis was terminal, so we were in home hospice and I was sitting up at the dining room table, which was my makeshift office at the time. 

And there she was, across the room from me in the living room, just trying desperately to, literally, physically complete this one last piece of writing. 

Of course, I read it, but I had no idea what to expect if it was going to be published, and I was extremely shocked at the outpouring when it did.

Did you know what she was writing?

No, I did not know until it was finished.

It's such a difficult time, and time is so short in those moments, but did you talk to her about why it was so important that she finish that piece? That that was the last piece that she wrote? 

Not specifically. There were additional nuggets that she left behind that I didn't even know that she wrote. But not specifically. No, it was all quite a bit of a surprise. 

It goes out into the world through this column — it's shared all around the world through social media and beyond. What sort of response did you get? 

It was overwhelming, I'll put it that way. At first, I was really absorbed into the depths of grief and couldn't process everything that was going on. And that was for quite a long time. 

It wasn't until much later that I went back into these bins that I had been collecting, literally, of physical letters, trinkets, pieces of art and other things that people were sending us and dove into those and really read all of them. 

Why do you think that what she wrote connected with people in that way … Why do you think it had that impact?

I think it's a combination of the beauty of our relationship, of the selflessness of the human race, and trying to comfort me — a total stranger at a time where I was obviously suffering a deep loss. 

Also, I think in general, as I've learned since then … everyone has an issue relating to loss that they wanted to sort of share and felt like they could connect with me because this was so public. 

That ends up being, in some ways, not your life's work but a big part of your life after Amy dies; that you become, in some ways, an expert on grief. Tell me a little bit about that and how that unfolded. Were you comfortable in that role?

It started because I gave a TED talk in April 2018 about my journey, really, in being with Amy and being with her at the end of her life, and a little bit about how I've gotten on since then.

And it was really as a result of the response, the incredible response from that and how people again connected with me, that convinced me that this was something that I really could do and that people really wanted and resonated with.

What were people looking for, do you think?

I think they were looking for a way to connect with someone [about] what they were going through in their own lives, because every one of us has a story of loss.

You're a lawyer, now you're a writer, and you also become a grief counsellor. Is that something that was easy for you, that transition?

Turns out it was, yeah. Who knew, right? 

I feel like it's a meaningful step in my life. It gives me great meaning to connect with people in this way.

Amy, in the piece that she wrote — [and] beyond that as well — encouraged you to go out and meet someone after her death. Why do you think she was insistent about that?

I spent a lot of time thinking about that, but I think that at some level she knew it would be so hard because our relationship was so beautiful and so connected. And I'm not sure, even now as I think about it, that I could possibly do that without her express blessing, and it really permitted me to move forward in my life.

Have you been able to move forward in that way?

Yes. I'm seeing someone and we're connected and I talk a very little bit about in the book, mostly because I wanted to give permission to guys in my similar situation to know that it's OK. You know, many people won't get the express blessing that I got. But I'd like to pay it forward.

What do you mean [by] permission? 

Permission to move on in life. You know, for me, I'm a relatively young man and I know a lot of people who are experiencing loss feel the same way. 

But it's hard. It's hard to even conceive of the fact that you might have another chapter.

Written by Jason Vermes. Produced by Howard Goldenthal.

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Amy Krouse Rosenthal, Author Of Heartbreaking 'Modern Love' Essay, Dead At 51

Deputy Enterprise Editor, Culture, HuffPost

Amy Krouse Rosenthal, the author behind a heartbreaking “Modern Love” essay that appeared in The New York Times earlier this month, died on Monday. The Chicago-based writer of adult and children’s books, who’d been battling ovarian cancer since 2015, was 51.

Rosenthal published more than 30 books throughout her career, including Encyclopedia of an Ordinary Life ( 2005) , The Same Phrase Describes My Marriage and My Breasts (1999), and the Duck! Rabbit! picture book. She also produced short films and YouTube videos and contributed to TED Talks and NPR.

Her widely read essay, “ You May Want to Marry My Husband ,” was published on March 3. In that piece, she imagined a dating profile for the husband she would leave behind when she died. “He is an easy man to fall in love with,” she wrote, recounting how the pair met in 1989 when they were only 24. “I did it in one day.”

After learning she didn't have long to live, she composed a dating profile for the man she'd leave behind https://t.co/keOYtbfHX1 — The New York Times (@nytimes) March 5, 2017

The viral essay garnered more than 1,300 comments from readers, who expressed overwhelming gratitude for Rosenthal’s words. “I greatly appreciate you, Amy,” Ryan from Denver wrote, “for writing this and for giving me a perspective on what I hope for one day.”

Jason, her husband of 26 years and father to their three children, issued a response to the essay, telling NBC News , “It is Amy’s gift with words that has drawn the universe in. Unfortunately, I do not have the same aptitude for the written word, but if I did I can assure you that my tale would be about the most epic love story — ours.”

Shortly after, the “Today” show reported that Rosenthal was in hospice care, surrounded by family members who asked for privacy. The New York Times confirmed Rosenthal’s death over Twitter on Monday.

Fans of her writing have now begun to share stories of Rosenthal’s influence. Famed author John Green told The Chicago Sun Times , “It’s hard to imagine what my professional life or my personal life would look like without Amy’s influence. Amy taught me that, for writing to work, it has to be a gift for the reader, rather than an attempt to impress them or an attempt to think you’re cool or whatever.”

Read some of the many tributes below.

My friend Amy Krouse Rosenthal has died. She was a brilliant writer, and an even better friend. Amy's genius was in her generosity... — John Green (@johngreen) March 13, 2017

RIP Amy Krouse Rosenthal. We were honored to have you as a blogger and host of "Writers Block Party." https://t.co/yXR7sDnJCt — WBEZ (@WBEZ) March 13, 2017

"I Wish You More" RIP Amy Krouse Rosenthal. The Chicago literary community is less joyous today. — Melody Ekstrom (@mdemanatee) March 13, 2017

Very sad news: Amy Krouse Rosenthal, author of more than 20 books for children, died this morning from cancer. pic.twitter.com/ge9EnhLpfx — Children's Bookshelf (@PWKidsBookshelf) March 13, 2017

RIP, Amy Krouse Rosenthal, author of the incredible essay "You May Want To Marry My Husband." All our sympathies to your family. https://t.co/q97XNPzSyT — Nicholas Kristof (@NickKristof) March 13, 2017

Amy Krouse Rosenthal died today. Her last piece for the NYT was amazing: https://t.co/1VPCKKbN80 — Ryan North (@ryanqnorth) March 13, 2017

RIP Amy Krouse Rosenthal, who touched so many people's lives. https://t.co/LvQVOZXk1f — Pamela Paul (@PamelaPaulNYT) March 13, 2017

A page from the late, great Amy Krouse Rosenthal's notebook makes for a poignant screensaver. Instant perspective. ❤️ pic.twitter.com/9qdAheYFue — Tim Federle (@TimFederle) March 13, 2017

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Author Amy Krouse Rosenthal Dies After Writing Dating Profile Essay About Her Husband

A my Krouse Rosenthal, the children’s book author whose emotional “Modern Love” column about her husband recently went viral, died of cancer on Monday, her literary agent confirmed to TIME.

Rosenthal’s recent New York Times column, titled “ You May Want to Marry My Husband ,” explained her ovarian cancer diagnosis and served as both a love letter and dating profile for her husband of 26 years.

“I want more time with Jason. I want more time with my children. I want more time sipping martinis at the Green Mill Jazz Club on Thursday nights. But that is not going to happen,” Rosenthal, 51, wrote in the column, which was published March 3.

“I probably have only a few days left being a person on this planet. So why I am doing this? I am wrapping this up on Valentine’s Day, and the most genuine, non-vase-oriented gift I can hope for is that the right person reads this, finds Jason, and another love story begins.”

Rosenthal was the author of 28 children’s books and a 2016 memoir, Textbook Amy Krouse Rosenthal .

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Author, 'modern love' essayist amy krouse rosenthal dies at 51.

Camila Domonoske

From 1997: Amy Krouse Rosenthal On What She's Thankful For

Chicago author Amy Krouse Rosenthal has died at 51, according to The Associated Press. Kevin Nance/Chicago Tribune/TNS via Getty Images hide caption

Chicago author Amy Krouse Rosenthal has died at 51, according to The Associated Press.

Amy Krouse Rosenthal, the best-selling author who recently announced her illness by penning a personals ad for her beloved husband, has died at 51.

Rosenthal had ovarian cancer. Her longtime literary agent confirmed her death to The Associated Press.

As an author, Rosenthal won hearts with her children's books and her memoirs — and broke them with her "Modern Love" column called " You May Want To Marry My Husband ." It ran in the New York Times earlier this month.

Author Interviews

Amy rosenthal's lively, personal 'encyclopedia', spread the good word: atm=always trust magic.

In the piece, Rosenthal announced her illness, celebrated her family and sought a new partner for her husband, Jason. She finished the essay — difficult to write through a haze of drugs and illness — on Valentine's Day, she said, "and the most genuine, non-vase-oriented gift I can hope for is that the right person reads this, finds Jason, and another love story begins."

Rosenthal was a prolific writer, with more than 30 books to her name, the AP reports — including children's books Uni the Unicorn and Duck! Rabbit! The wire service continues:

" She made short films and YouTube videos, gave TED talks and provided radio commentary for NPR, among others. "She also raised three children and had a flair for random acts of kindness, whether hanging dollar bills from a tree or leaving notes on ATM machines. ... "Rosenthal loved experimenting with different media, and blending the virtual and physical worlds. One of her favorite projects began with a YouTube video, '17 Things I Made,' featuring everything from books she had written to her three children to a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. At the end of the video, she welcomed fans to join her at Chicago's Millennium Park, on August 8, 2008, at 8:08 p.m. The goal was to make a 'cool' 18th thing. "Hundreds turned out to 'make' things — a grand entrance, a new friend, a splash, something pretty."

Rosenthal was famously upbeat — an NPR book critic once called her "preternaturally cheerful."

Even her essay announcing her terminal disease was forward-looking and, in its own way, profoundly joyful. But the popular essay left many a reader in tears, as Rosenthal celebrated her husband and the life she was about to leave behind:

"If you're looking for a dreamy, let's-go-for-it travel companion, Jason is your man. He also has an affinity for tiny things: taster spoons, little jars, a mini-sculpture of a couple sitting on a bench, which he presented to me as a reminder of how our family began. "Here is the kind of man Jason is: He showed up at our first pregnancy ultrasound with flowers. This is a man who, because he is always up early, surprises me every Sunday morning by making some kind of oddball smiley face out of items near the coffeepot: a spoon, a mug, a banana. ... "If he sounds like a prince and our relationship seems like a fairy tale, it's not too far off, except for all of the regular stuff that comes from two and a half decades of playing house together. And the part about me getting cancer. Blech."

Rosenthal contributed to NPR several times, including a Thanksgiving-themed commentary from 1997 about what she was grateful for. "I'm thankful for hot soup on cold Sundays," she said. "I'm thankful every time I pull up to a parking meter with free time remaining. I'm thankful for pockets."

You can hear that commentary here:

You can also read an excerpt from her first memoir, Encyclopedia of an Ordinary Life. One of the items was "Dying."

"People are just dying everywhere, all the time, every which way," she wrote. "What can the rest of us do but hold on for dear life."

To revisit this article, visit My Profile, then View saved stories .

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Author Amy Krouse Rosenthal, Who Wrote Viral “Modern Love” Essay, Has Died

By Hilary Weaver

Earlier this month, author Amy Krouse Rosenthal wrote a Modern Love essay for The New York Times . Titled “You May Want to Marry My Husband,” Krouse Rosenthal wrote the essay to ensure that her husband might find love after her death. On Monday, Children’s Bookshelf tweeted , that the author, who had ovarian cancer, has died.

This content can also be viewed on the site it originates from.

In her essay, Krouse Rosenthal wrote of her 26-year marriage to her husband, Jason Rosenthal , and of the life they had together. The couple had three children, the youngest of whom had just left for college when Krouse Rosenthal received her diagnosis early September of 2015. “So many plans instantly went poof,” she wrote in her essay.

“I have never been on Tinder, Bumble, or eHarmony, but I’m going to create a general profile for Jason right here, based on my experience of coexisting in the same house with him for, like, 9,490 days,” she continued.

She went on to describe every detail about Jason, from his height and weight to his cleanliness at home and personal style. “He is a captivating character,” she said of her longtime husband. “My guess is you know enough about him now. So let’s swipe right. Wait. Did I mention that he is incredibly handsome? I’m going to miss looking at that face of his.”

Besides being the author of this moving essay, Krouse Rosenthal wrote both adult and children’s books. She also made short films and contributed to TED conferences and NPR, according to her website .

“Some things she likes to make,” the site reads: “Children's books. Grown-up books. Short films. Salads. Connections with the universe. Something out of nothing. Wishes.”

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Read This and Cry … It’s Friday

It’s Friday. You did it! You made it through a long week, that comes at the end of a long month, that comes at the end of an unbearably long year. So why not release some of that weepy, ugly-cry energy you’ve been jealously hoarding until you can watch Coco for the seventh time? You’ve earned it.

Today’s cry comes from Jason Rosenthal. Last year, his wife of 26 years, author Amy Krouse Rosenthal, who was terminally ill with ovarian cancer at the time, wrote a dating profile for him in the form of a funny, wrenching Modern Love essay for the New York Times . “I want more time with Jason … But that is not going to happen. I only have a few days left being a person on this planet,” she wrote. “The most genuine … gift I can hope for is that the right person reads this, finds Jason, and another love story begins.” Ten days later, she died. Now, just over a year later, Jason has written his own Modern Love essay about life after Amy, and much like his late wife’s, it’s in turn funny, raw, and devastating.

He writes that many women took Amy up on her offer to date him, and that, “in a six-page handwritten letter, one woman marketed her automotive knowledge, apparently in an effort to woo me: ‘I do know how to check the radiator in the vehicle to see if it may need a tad of water before the engine blows up.’”

His wife’s essay also served as a reminder to make the most of his life, Jason says, and he offers advice to families who might be facing similar situations.

If I can convey a message I have learned from this bestowal, it would be this: Talk with your mate, your children and other loved ones about what you want for them when you are gone. By doing this, you give them liberty to live a full life and eventually find meaning again. There will be so much pain, and they will think of you daily. But they will carry on and make a new future, knowing you gave them permission and even encouragement to do so.

Last year, Amy concluded her viral essay with a large blank space to give her husband and whomever he ended up with “the fresh start you deserve.”

Jason does the same, writing, “My wife gave me a gift at the end of her column when she left me that empty space, one I would like to offer you. A blank space to fill. The freedom and permission to write your own story. Here is your empty space. What will you do with your own fresh start?”

Damn. Read the full essay here , and watch Jason Rosenthal’s TED Talk about grief and loss here .

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Part II: My Wife Said You May Want to Marry Me | With André Holland

Copy the code below to embed the wbur audio player on your site.

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• Caitlin O'Keefe

Last week, you heard an essay by Amy Krouse Rosenthal — "You May Want to Marry my Husband." It was published just days before she died of ovarian cancer.

This past summer, her husband Jason wrote his own Modern Love essay — called “My Wife Said you May want to marry me.” It’s read by Andre Holland. He's the executive producer and star of "High Flying Bird," now on Netflix and in select theaters.

Where Are They Now?

When we talked to Jason Rosenthal, he told us what it was like to take care of his wife in the final days of her life.

"During the time that Amy was in hospice, we were really focused on making the end of her life as beautiful as it could be," he says. "And there was no guidebook," Jason says.

"But ... I tried to make it beautiful," he continues. "For some reason candles spoke to me. Candles symbolized life in different ways, that some could be small and last a short while, others burned for months. So we had candles burn all over our home. We had family come in, we had our close friends on another evening. I invited in musicians to play for Amy. We did our best to make that time for her as beautiful as it could be."

"And by the way, it was not always beautiful," he adds. "It was extraordinarily painful and hard, and my kids were incredible."

During her illness, Jason says that he and Amy had many conversations about parenting their three children.

"One of the things I wanted to ask her was, 'How am I going to do this without you? You're the best mom ever, and it seems so natural to you,'" he says. "And she flat-out assured me that the kids love [me], and [I'm] a great parent, and they're also not little kids anymore."

"But filling that void is impossible and I'm not pretending to know how to be mom, I'm just doing my best to try to be able to be dad," Jason says. "And I do find myself from time to time thinking, 'What would Amy say?' Because she did have a gift of knowing exactly what each child needed in any given circumstance. So I'm doing my best."

We asked Jason about the blank space at the end of Amy's essay, and if it felt like a gift or a burden.

"That blank space has allowed me to lift my head up in the morning in the first few months. Even though I was deeply emotional and deep in the throes of grief, I took that as a gift," he says. "And I was able to continue my life forward."

"I’ve done that more and more. I’ve taken advantage of opportunities that have been given to me. I know that there are many people out there who have never had conversations with their spouses and family, or been told something so specifically, like Amy provided for me, that struggle quite a bit, and never really emerged from those deep throes of grief."

Although he's been given that fresh start, things have not been easy for Jason.

"I think a full life looks much different than it did before, let's be honest," he says. "It's been almost two years and I have had a great deal of difficulty engaging again with what I did professionally, which was being a lawyer. I'm trying to make each day, each week, meaningful in some way to me."

Jason says that he's still receiving letters from readers, describing their own experiences of grief or reaching out in the hope of starting a relationship. He hasn't responded to any of the people seeking romance, and doesn't think he will. But over time, he's gone back to the letters, and found humor in some of them. One stands out:

"Obviously someone spent some time on it, and it said, 'I will marry you as soon as you are ready, provided you permanently stop drinking. No other conditions, and I promise to outlive you.' I don't know how that applies to my life. But it really did make me laugh."

But 'There's this huge hole or void in my heart that's taken up by someone else," he says. "Because the truth is ... I never fell out of love with someone. I will always love Amy. And whoever ends up with me will need to embrace that." Voices In This Episode

Jason Rosenthal "I have practiced law and developed real estate in Chicago for half of my life. But that is only what I did '9 to 5.' What made me better at my profession and as a human being getting through each day was realizing my thirst for learning and doing. I practiced yoga intensely, I traveled the world with my wife and my family, I learned to paint and made a home studio and I developed a passion for cooking. In my adult life I have read with a thirst for knowledge, everything from the most meaty fiction, fascinating nonfiction and magazines. My family is what makes me who I am today. I was married to the most amazing woman for half of my life. We raised 3 incredible children in Chicago, a culturally vibrant and livable city with people of good Midwestern values. When my bride died of ovarian cancer after 26 years of marriage I got in touch with real pain. I immediately reevaluated my life’s work. Now, I speak publicly on issues related to processing grief and finding hope and joy amongst the pain. I co-authored a book with my daughter Paris, "Dear Boy," that will be released on April 23, 2019 and am working on a memoir. I am also the President of the Board of a non-profit organization created in Amy’s name, the Amy Krouse Rosenthal Foundation, and am fueled by its mission to provide programs in the child literacy space and to provide funding for early detection of ovarian cancer. My future is a blank space waiting to be filled."

Caitlin O'Keefe Producer, Podcasts & New Programs Caitlin O'Keefe was a producer of podcasts and new programming at WBUR.

More from Modern Love

As a self-professed mega-fan of rom-com novels and films, I was thrilled when Amazon announced their upcoming Modern Love TV series , based on the long-running New York Times Modern Love column . Premiering on Oct. 18, the series boasts a star-studded cast (Anne Hathaway, Tina Fey, Dev Patel and Andrew Scott are just four of the show's featured actors) and will feature eight anthology-style episodes about love in all of its many forms — romantic, familial, platonic, sexual, and for oneself. Whether you're a long-time reader of Modern Love or are just discovering the column, now is the perfect time to catch up on some of the greatest essays before the show premieres.

In the revised and updated version of the Modern Love book (first published in 2007) editor Daniel Jones compiled 42 of the columns best essays. In his introduction to the book, Jones writes:

"I suppose if we are going to try to define what a love story is, we should begin by defining what love is, but that can be even more slippery. Our definitions of love, too, tend toward the flowery treatment. From where I sit, however -- as someone who has read, skimmed, or otherwise digested some one hundred thousand love stories over the past fifteen years -- love, at its best, is more of a wheelbarrow than a rose: gritty, and messy but also durable. Yet still hard to put into words."

Below are seven of my favorite of the 42 essays that appear in the Modern Love book, a great refresher for seasoned readers and a perfect precursor to the series for new fans, too:

'You Might Want to Marry My Husband' by Amy Krouse Rosenthal

In this March 2017 column (published just 10 days before she died of ovarian cancer at age 51) author Amy Krouse Rosenthal wrote a moving letter to her husband, Jason Rosenthal, in the hopes of finding him a new partner:

"Here is the kind of man Jason is: He showed up at our first pregnancy ultrasound with flowers. This is a man, who, because he is always up early, surprises me every Sunday morning by making some kind of oddball smiley face out of items near the coffee pot: a spoon, a mug, a banana. This is a main who emerges from the minimart or gas station and says, 'Give me your palm.' And voila, a colorful gum ball appears. (He knows I love all the flavors but white.) My guess is you know enough about him now. So let's swipe right."

Read "You Might Want To Marry My Husband."

'The Race Grows Sweeter Near Its Final Lap' by Eve Pell

Although Eve Pell's Jan. 2013 essay has not been officially confirmed as part of the Modern Love series, clues from the trailer highly suggest its inclusion. In it, Pell wrote of her late-in-life marriage to a Japanese American widower named Sam:

"Old love is different. In our 70s and 80s, we had been through enough of life’s ups and downs to know who we were, and we had learned to compromise. We knew something about death because we had seen loved ones die. The finish line was drawing closer. Why not have one last blossoming of the heart?"

Read "The Race Grows Sweeter In Its Final Lap."

'When Eve and Eve Bit the Apple' by Kristen Scharold

In this Nov. 2016 essay, writer Kristen Scharold wrote about coming out as queer and leaving her Evangelical church when she meets and falls in love with a woman named Jess:

"I felt my cramped religious framework of false dichotomies and moral starkness beginning to collapse. What once seemed like a bleak choice between losing my soul or losing my most cherished friend was in fact a lesson that true love is the only thing that could save me."

Read "When Eve and Eve Bit The Apple."

'When the Doorman is Your Main Man' by Julie Margaret Hogben

Hogben's Oct. 2015 essay (also seemingly included in the Modern Love series trailer) focused on the unique friendship she shares with her doorman, Guzim, and how his support helped her embark on the journey of single motherhood with courage:

"I became fodder for gossip: Who was the father? Did I dump him, or did he dump me? Valid questions, sometimes asked to my face, sometimes not. But down in the lobby, Guzim was there with no dog in the race. I wasn’t his daughter, sister or ex. I wasn’t his employee or boss. Our social circles didn’t overlap. Six days a week, he stood downstairs, detached but also caring enough to be the perfect friend, neither worried nor pitying."

Read "When The Doorman Is Your Main Man."

'Rallying to Keep the Game Alive' by Ann Leary

Leary's Sept. 2013 essay about the almost-end and subsequent reunification of her marriage to actor Denis Leary is a moving look at a modern marriage (and another essay that, though currently unconfirmed, also seems to be included in the Modern Love trailer.) She wrote:

"When we met, I was 20, he 25. We were too young and inexperienced to know that people don’t change who they are, only how they play and work with others. Our basic problem was, and is, that we are almost identical — in looks, attitudes and psychological makeup. Two Leos who love children and animals, and are intensely emotional and highly sensitive and competitive with everybody, but especially with each other."

Read "Rallying To Keep The Game Alive."

'Now I Need a Place to Hide Away' by Ann Hood

In her Feb. 2017 column, author Ann Hood wrote about The Beatles fandom she shared with her young daughter, Grace, who died suddenly of complications from a virulent form of strep when she was just five years old:

"It is difficult to hide from the Beatles. After all these years they are still regularly in the news. Their songs play on oldies stations, countdowns and best-ofs. There is always some Beatles anniversary: the first No. 1 song, the first time in the United States, a birthday, an anniversary, a milestone, a Broadway show. But hide from the Beatles I must. Or, in some cases, escape."

Read "Now I Need A Place To Hide Away."

'Take Me As I Am, Whoever I Am' by Terri Cheney

Terri Cheney's Jan. 2008 essay, which has been confirmed as the inspiration behind the episode of the Modern Love series starring Anne Hathaway, is about the author's experience with rapid-cycling bipolar disorder and how it affected her dating life. Cheney wrote:

"In love there’s no hiding: You have to let someone know who you are, but I didn’t have a clue who I was from one moment to the next. When dating me, you might go to bed with Madame Bovary and wake up with Hester Prynne. Worst of all, my manic, charming self was constantly putting me into situations that my down self couldn’t handle."

Read "Take Me As I Am, Whoever I Am."

This article was originally published on Sep. 12, 2019

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The ‘Modern Love’ Essay Husband Opens Up About Grief

Jason Rosenthal’s wife wrote ‘You May Want To Marry My Husband.’ Here, he shares his experience.

Remember the heart-wrenching 2017 “You May Want To Marry My Husband” NYT Modern Love essay? Amy Krouse Rosenthal wrote about her love story with her husband, Jason Rosenthal, just before dying of ovarian cancer. Jason fills in the blanks with a memoir: My Wife Said You May Want To Marry Me . Taking from his own experiences, he opened up about telling his own story and offers some tips on handling grief as the pandemic turns our worlds upside down.

Wake-Up Call: We read your Modern Love column when it came out. lt must’ve been such a strange experience because so many people fell in love with your wife and your love story. What was it like to have this really personal, honest essay, which is so beautiful and so moving, be so widely read and widely received?

Jason Rosenthal: It was surreal at first. I was so absorbed in my grieving process, way down in the depths of as sad as one could even contemplate being. And so it sort of all was floating around. And I didn’t quite realize how overwhelming it was until I sort of began to lift that fog. You know, one thing I do remember is I went to the Starbucks close to my house and there was Amy on the front page of the newspaper. I’m like, “This is my wife.” The guy, the barista, was like, “Well that’s great. Who cares?” But it was just an interesting moment. I didn’t feel a lot different because of the attention, until later when I began to process it.

And so now you’ve written a memoir that kind of picks off where she left off. Can you tell us why you felt it was important to share this journey with us? What made you want to share your story with the world?

You know, I gave my Ted talk in April 2018 because I had been approached by tons of media.

And before that, it just didn’t feel good. It didn’t feel right. I wanted to be able to say what I wanted to say in my own way. And so when I did that in my talk, the response was almost immediately really overwhelming. I quickly realized that so many, many, many people have a shared story of loss, and connected with me in ways that I never expected.

So then I wrote my own Modern Love column , a response to Amy’s love. I got this opportunity through that. A publisher approached me and I wanted to share my story, because as Katie did for me, for example, you know, I think it’s important to help each other as we go through these experiences because you feel so stuck and so lost.

There’s not a clear roadmap to handling grief. So what advice would you offer to someone who is experiencing grief right now? What would you tell them?

Literally all of us, at this particular moment, in this crazy time, are experiencing loss and grief. We all have our different experiences with it, but it’s sort of our shared story. Some people might just be missing their normal routines of going to the gym. Others may have someone who’s really, really sick. I think my message is twofold: It’s normal to feel really sad and anxious during this type of experience. And on the other hand, we’re going to get through it and we’re going to get through it together. It’s been astonishing for me to see how humankind has come together for total strangers, for each other, for our community. We really see the amazing qualities of humans during a crisis like this.

What do you hope that people take away from your book?

I want to give some people hope that true love and raising a family can be a real joy. I want to convey to people that loss is part of everyone’s life and in particular, end-of-life issues are important to discuss and talk about before they tend to be really extreme. And also that there’s your ability to be resilient. I consider that I went through some of the most unspeakable pain anyone can ever endure, and yet somehow I’m able to keep going and to find joy in my life. And I consider that a gift that Amy gave me that I’m trying to pass along to the universe.

As you move forward with your life, what things are you doing to carry Amy along with you?

Almost everything. One of the things I spend a lot of my time with now is the foundation I found in her honor, it’s called the Amy Krouse Rosenthal Foundation, and the mission is to support work of early detection of ovarian cancer. And we’ve also had the great good fortune of donating tens of thousands of books to kids in need all over the country. That’s super meaningful. I’ve also been blessed to speak literally all over the world on these topics and I bring Amy with me every time I do that because I talk about her ability to communicate with people, and her spirit, and her connection. I really just think I reframed the way I try to appreciate the small moments in life, which was something that she did naturally, it was part of her DNA.

What do you hear from people when you’re giving these talks around the world?

I hear stories of loss that have made a huge impact on people, ranging from losing a path to having a spouse, obviously ill, or you know, dies of unspeakable disease, to going through a horrible divorce. But somehow, people feel that they can talk to me and connect with me because my story was so public and they know what I went through. I continue to this date, to get emails and correspondence from people who are going through something because they’ve either come across my essay or something else I’ve done.

How are you holding up now in this strange time?

I feel really fortunate that two of my children, who work and live in Manhattan, drove back about a month ago. We’re hunkered down together and it’s given me a sort of new opportunity to experience them in different ways.

And are there any interesting challenges in having them back at home?

To be honest with you, no. We all do our work all day long, and then I prepare a meal or we watch a movie or play ping pong. It’s been pretty special.

This interview has been edited and condensed.

If you buy a book through our links, Katie Couric Media may earn an affiliate commission.

This originally appeared on Medium.com

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Amy Krouse Rosenthal, author who penned viral 'Modern Love' essay, dies at 51

Amy Krouse Rosenthal, who wrote more than 28 children's books and penned a widely read Modern Love column for the New York Times published earlier this month, died on Monday at age 51 following a battle with ovarian cancer.

Rosenthal was known for the children's books ! , Duck! Rabbit! , and I Wish You More and her memoirs, Encyclopedia of an Extraordinary Life and Textbook Amy Krouse Rosenthal . Last week, the New York Times posted a piece written by Rosenthal in February that detailed her health struggles and asked readers to consider a relationship with her husband.

"I want more time with Jason. I want more time with my children. I want more time sipping martinis at the Green Mill Jazz Club on Thursday nights. But that is not going to happen. I probably have only a few days left being a person on this planet. So why I am doing this?" Rosenthal wrote in the piece, titled "You May Want to Marry My Husband." "I am wrapping this up on Valentine's Day, and the most genuine, non-vase-oriented gift I can hope for is that the right person reads this, finds Jason, and another love story begins."

The emotional piece was praised online, with many readers sending in responses about their own experiences with terminal illness and grief, as well as hopes and wishes for future relationships.

Rosenthal, who first began writing in the late '90s, actually began her career in advertising before switching over to write children's books. According to the Associated Press , Rosenthal completed seven picture books before her death, including a one that saw her collaborate with her daughter Paris, titled Dear Girl .

"Everything Amy did was life and love affirming. She was such a bright light with a great sense of wonder," said Amy Rennert, Rosenthal's literary agent and friend, in a statement. "Amy loved her family. She loved words, ideas, connections. She taught us that life's seemingly small moments are not really small at all. Amy's final essay, written under the most difficult of circumstances, a love letter to her husband Jason, was the ultimate gift to him and also to the rest of us. She leaves behind a legacy of love and beauty and kindness."

The Uni the Unicorn author was also a contributor to NPR, Amy Poehler's Smart Girls, and Oprah Magazine. She was also known for her TED Talks — the most famous of which, " 7 Notes on Life ," saw the author encouraging viewers to "Make the most of your time here."

"We are deeply saddened by the news of our author Amy Krouse Rosenthal's death," said Penguin Random House in a statement. "We have had the honor of working with Amy for many years, and have great admiration for her both professionally and personally. Together, we will be privileged to bring the joy of her books to adult and children's readers for generations to come."

A Tufts University graduate, Rosenthal often experimented with nontraditional mediums and forms, from making her own short videos to organizing a gathering of hundreds of readers with the goal of "making" things — one of whom was fellow author John Green ( Paper Towns ), who went on to become a friend.

"No one wrote like Amy," tweeted Green upon hearing the news. "No one saw the world the way she did." Green and other members of the literary community remember Rosenthal, below.

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Modern Love, Revised and Updated: True Stories of Love, Loss, and Redemption Paperback – September 3, 2019

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• Print length 304 pages
• Language English
• Publisher Crown
• Publication date September 3, 2019
• Dimensions 5.2 x 0.62 x 8 inches
• ISBN-10 0593137043
• ISBN-13 978-0593137048
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• Publisher ‏ : ‎ Crown; Updated edition (September 3, 2019)
• Language ‏ : ‎ English
• Paperback ‏ : ‎ 304 pages
• ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0593137043
• ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0593137048
• Item Weight ‏ : ‎ 7.4 ounces
• Dimensions ‏ : ‎ 5.2 x 0.62 x 8 inches
• #470 in Dating (Books)
• #882 in Essays (Books)
• #1,444 in Love & Romance (Books)

About the authors

Deborah copaken.

DEBORAH COPAKEN is the New York Times bestselling author of several books, including Shutterbabe, The Red Book, and Between Here and April. A contributing writer at The Atlantic, she was also a TV writer on "Emily in Paris," performer (The Moth, etc.), and a former Emmy Award-winning news producer and photojournalist. Her photographs have appeared in Time, Newsweek, and The New York Times. Her writing has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Guardian, The Financial Times, The Observer, The Wall Street Journal, The Nation, Slate, O, the Oprah Magazine, and Paris Match, among others. Her column, “When Cupid is a Prying Journalist,” was adapted for the Modern Love streaming series. She lives in Brooklyn with her family.

Daniel Jones

Daniel Jones has edited the Modern Love column in The New York Times since its launch in 2004. His books include “Love Illuminated: Exploring Life's Most Mystifying Subject with the Help of 50,000 Strangers,” “The Bastard on the Couch: 27 Men Try Really Hard to Explore Their Feelings About Love, Loss, Freedom, and Fatherhood,” and a novel, “After Lucy,” which was a finalist for the Barnes & Noble Discover Award. His new book, "Modern Love," is an anthology of many of the best Modern Love columns from the past 15 years. Jones appears weekly on the Modern Love podcast and is consulting producer for Amazon Studios’ show “Modern Love.” He lives in Northampton, Massachusetts and in New York City.

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Can the New York Times’ Modern Love Column Change a Writer’s Life?

On winning the "american idol" of aspiring memoirists.

Three years ago, I spent time at Hedgebrook, the writers’ retreat for women on Whidbey Island. By then, I’d learned that slipping my New York Times Modern Love credit into the conversation quickly established my bona fides with other writers. The column’s high profile and one-in-a-hundred weekly acceptance rate has put it on many a writer’s bucket list. But I was taken aback when one of the women in our group asked, “Did it change your life?”

It seemed a little silly to think a single essay could change one’s life. Yet I knew what she was asking: Had agents and publishers beaten down my door after the essay appeared? Modern Love, which began in 2004, has become mythic among aspiring writers—a literary equivalent to winning American Idol . The column’s longtime editor, Dan Jones, estimates that 50 to 60 book deals based on Modern Love essays have been struck to date. Amy Krouse Rosenthal’s recent essay, “ You May Want to Marry My Husband ,” prompted a lucrative film rights bidding war ultimately won by Universal Pictures.

My essay, “ A Measure of Desire ,” did not inspire such a dramatic response. Still, on the eve of my first book’s publication, five years after the essay appeared, I have to admit that Modern Love has indeed had a significant impact on my life and career. And having spoken to several other writers about their experiences, it is clear that I’m not alone.

Nicole Hardy told me that she never would have written Confessions of a Latter-Day Virgin if Modern Love hadn’t shown her that there was a demand for her particular story . At the time, she had already published two books of poetry, but “no one in the industry knew who [she] was.” She didn’t know about the column or its influence, either. She had started to experiment with more narrative poetry and essays. When a friend said that one of the essays sounded perfect for Modern Love, she submitted it.

It was the right story at the right time. As Hardy understands it, “people want[ed] a peek behind the curtain” of Mormonism. Mitt Romney had announced his 2012 presidential bid, The Book of Mormon was about to debut on Broadway, and several abuse cases involving the fundamentalist Mormon Church were making headlines. As she put it, “Mormons were in the zeitgeist.” Still, she isn’t sure that she would have been brave enough to write the memoir if big agents and editors hadn’t asked her to. “I would have put it off,” she said.

“One of the reasons the column has a large readership in the publishing world is because we showcase the work of so many unknown writers who are telling their most important story,” explained Dan Jones. While there are many other venues for the personal essay, the idea that Modern Love features profound stories may be why the column has led to dozens of books. “Part of the power of Modern Love is also in its length,” Jones told me. “At 1,500 words, it’s just long enough to form a real narrative arc. Pretty often that story, if it’s rich enough, can also suggest a book-length exploration.”

Another writer, whose essay appeared in the early 2000s, is still sensitive about the ups and downs of her Modern Love experience (and requested to remain anonymous). “A fancy New York agent read it and sought me out,” she said. “She took me to lunch. She sent me home with a contract, which I signed within a week. I was totally living the dream.” But then the requests for revisions came. The agent wanted her to abandon the book of essays she intended to write to work on a memoir—“a somewhat dirty memoir, more sex than city.” She pushed back, and ultimately the agent dropped her unceremoniously by email.

“I was crushed,” the writer told me. As she slowly “uncrumpled,” she saw that the agent had been “someone to fantasize over, but not at all the right match for me.” So she kept writing. She reshaped her book again and again. Despite the initial false start, she holds that her Modern Love experience made a significant impact on her. “It showed me who I am as a writer, and how committed I am to my identity as an essayist,” she said. Over a decade after her Modern Love essay appeared, her “dream publisher for an essayist” will publish her collection.

Claire Dederer, on the other hand, was already an established writer when her Modern Love column came out. Her publisher encouraged her to write a piece to help raise awareness for her new book, Love and Trouble . She told me that she attributes the column’s prestige to the high quality of editing at The Times .

“Modern Love is one of the only places at the paper that features really personal writing, and it’s treated with the usual Times editorial rigor,” she said. “The purest feeling still needs to be contained in the structure of clear thinking and a well-made story. Precision is just as important in memoir and essay as it is in hard news, though as writers, sometimes we tell ourselves otherwise.”

As I experienced myself, Jones speaks with every writer before he accepts their piece. When I asked him why, he explained, “I have multiple goals: to verify the story, to learn more, to probe for meaning and context and clarity. Sometimes the best stuff in the essay comes from those conversations, and the connections and understandings they lead to.”

Getting my first email from him felt a little like new love itself—my heart fluttering and hoping this was “the one.” The turning point that would signal I was a writer who’d made it. When we had our conversation a few days later, it felt like a cross between a first date and a job interview; though our subject matter was intimate, I still wasn’t sure the piece would be accepted.

The calls are part of his overall personal approach to editing the column, reading and answering every submission himself. “I want people to submit not only their best work but also work that is deeply personal,” Jones said, “so I think it is important to respond and create a venue that writers can trust. This is a human business, after all.” He told me that when he was an aspiring writer, he sent his work out and often got no response. “I didn’t send back to those places. I don’t want writers to be treated that way or to give up.”

Initially, I wanted Modern Love to make me an overnight sensation. I didn’t realize that I was simply gearing up for a long and exhausting book-writing process. But I’m convinced the experience helped sustain me. Having such a committed and discerning editor take an interest in my work at the start of my career made me believe that I had promise and encouraged me to keep going. For a writer, that vote of confidence can change everything.

__________________________________

Andrea Jarrell’s I’m the One Who Got Away is available now from She Writes Press.

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How to Be Real With Your Kids

Actor penn badgley reads the essay “watching them watching me” and reflects on the power of apologizing to your children..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Love now and for always.

Did you fall in love?

Just tell her I love her.

Love is stronger than anything you can feel.

For the love.

And I love you more than anything.

(SINGING) What is love?

Here’s to love.

From “The New York Times,” I’m Anna Martin. This is “Modern Love.” Today, a conversation with the actor, Penn Badgley. Penn is best known for playing brooding characters. He plays a bookish, handsome serial killer who stalks women in the name of love on the Netflix show “You.”

Where is she? Tell me where she is! Tell me or I’ll kill you!

And of course, he played Dan Humphrey in the original “Gossip Girl.”

Within weeks, I was getting dozens of emails with stories about Upper East Siders, so I posted them anonymously.

Dan Humphrey is the outsider among this wealthy group of high schoolers. And spoiler alert for a TV show that finished airing in 2012, he ends up being revealed as the anonymous blogger ruining all of their lives. So, brooding might be an understatement.

At first, I thought the “Modern Love” essay Penn chose to read today felt like a departure from the work I’m used to seeing him in. It’s an essay about a father who needs to embrace his vulnerability in order to help himself and his three sons. Penn is also a father and a stepfather. And today with me, he opens up about what it means to be a parent who models humility and compassion.

Penn Badgley, welcome to “Modern Love.”

Thank you for having me.

So, I know I am not the first person to say this to you, but I am loving you on TikTok. You’re so good on TikTok.

[LAUGHS]: Thank you.

I mean, listen, you’re dancing, you’re singing. You have a TikTok about your feet. Explain that one.

Well, that one really was just because there were enough comments. I am often barefoot because when you’re inside, it’s either for me socks or barefoot.

Absolutely agree with you.

And I don’t know. I mean, I think a lot of us are barefoot. We’re just not all, like, on social media.

You’re getting so defensive. A lot of us are barefoot!

It’s a lot of us are —

Yeah, a lot of us do that.

I mean, it’s zany. It’s like, it’s just quick cuts.

It is zany.

This is me in my version of directing a comedy. This is like —

You are putting your whole self. It’s physical comedy, Penn. It’s physical comedy.

Yeah, which is to — I don’t know. I mean, to me, it’s like, what else are you going to do on TikTok? You know what I mean?

I mean, I love it. We get to see a totally different side of you, so different than the characters you play. It’s much lighter. It’s much more joyful. How does that feel for you?

Well, I mean, I have both sides to me. I’m quite capable of being serious and brooding, but I feel like at this point in life, that’s like a drag default. I don’t need to explore that anymore. You know what I mean? Not even as an actor, I’m saying as a person.

Like, there’s no — I don’t know if there’s value any longer in the seriousness and the brooding. I have that on lock. That’s 37 years of experience there.

Yeah. Was there a specific moment for you where you kind of felt yourself transition from —

Dark to light?

Yeah, to put it that way.

No, there’s definitely not one point. I would just say that for a number of reasons, I’ve been coming to terms with, as we often do as adults, probably the grievances, the grief maybe, the sadness of early life. And not everybody has a lot of sadness to pull from in their early life.

I happen to have had some experiences and events before 20 that kind of oriented me in a way where, frankly, those were the heaviest years. Like, those were very much the heaviest years. I would say throughout my 20s, I was unburdening. And then if there is one moment, I would say my 30th birthday, suddenly, something clicked a little bit, just a little.

I need to hear this because I’m 29, about to turn 30, so this is personally very important to me. Keep going. What happened on the 30th birthday?

So, I would imagine some people experience maybe something of the inverse, but I just really felt lighter because I think there’s something quite heavy about actually adolescence into adulthood, into early adulthood. By the time you’re 30, you just can no longer say — there is something where it’s like, all right, that stuff of youth is officially kind of over. It’s like, well, look, this is me. This is my life. I mean —

Mm-hmm, yeah. I mean, I know what you’re saying. When you’re 30, it feels like you’re fully responsible for dealing with what happens in your life, the things you can control and also the things that you can’t. It actually makes me think of the essay that you picked to read today. It’s called “Watching Them Watching Me,” and it’s about a dad and his children dealing with a tragedy together, something that none of them saw coming. Can you read that for me?

Sure. This is “Watching Them Watching Me,” by Dean E. Murphy.

“To celebrate our 25 anniversary, I had the videotape of our wedding converted into a DVD as a surprise for my wife. This was going to be a stay-at-home anniversary. We had splurged on our 20th, knowing that by this year, our oldest son would be frighteningly close to college, so a quiet dinner and a movie, our own movie, were what I had in mind. My wife and I hadn’t viewed the ceremony in years, but the routine was delightfully predictable. She would cry, on cue, at the moment when she choked up reciting her vows. And we would hold hands and give each other that knowing look, the one that said, I’d do it all again in a heartbeat.

I’d forgotten how long it took to get beyond our background stories, the high school swim teams, the travel, all leading to that electric day in Santa Barbara, California, when we first laid eyes on each other and knew almost instantly we were meant to be. I’ve met the man I’m going to marry, she reported to her mother that first night.

As the DVD played on, the tears began welling, but this time, long before we recited our vows, and it was me crying. My God, she looked gorgeous, as she stepped out of the white Cadillac, dodging the raindrops. She beamed a smile at the camera, her eyes filled with anticipation. Everything was perfect, down to her painted toenails. I remember it all so well, back when heaven was so generously shining on me, the lucky guy I was, this dream bride at my side.

My oldest son wandered into the room and grabbed a seat. He had seen the tape before, but didn’t really remember it and certainly had never watched it with such purpose. On screen, I had a full beard and thick, wavy hair and looked more his peer than the middle-aged father now sitting next to him. It was funny watching me pace with my groomsmen, awkwardly waiting for the ceremony to begin.

As I sat in front of the TV, I laughed and cried all at once, knowing with hindsight all that awaited us. His mother, well, she looked stunning to my son, too, and there was no mistaking her. Let’s get the show on the road, she ordered. My high schooler immediately recognized his mom, a quarter century of distance erased by a handful of take-control words. Still, he didn’t stick around. It turned out to be too hard for him to sit with me, his dad, by then, reduced to a helpless spectator to his own life. He felt like an intruder, he later confessed.

When one of his brothers happened by, he, too, was so unnerved that he darted out the front door. His eyes were swollen and red when he returned, not a word needing to be exchanged between us. You see, as hard as it had been for my three sons to lose their mother, she died rather suddenly, two months shy of our 25th. I learned that anniversary night that it has also been hard for them to watch me lose the love of my life.

As alone as I feel, I am not actually alone. I have three sons who can pinpoint with laser-like precision the gaping hole in my heart. It is an odd feeling as a father to be so transparent, so naked in front of the children you still provide for. But the death of a spouse rewrites the rules of a family in ways I never could have imagined. Some decisions in life, it turns out, are made for you, leaving you an unwitting accomplice and spectator at once.

My sons stood witness as I spent the better part of five months trying to keep my wife alive. She received a diagnosis of kidney cancer a few days after Thanksgiving, and we buried her the week before Easter.

In some ways, it was a flash, those 134 days fighting for treatments, arguing with insurance companies, pushing for another drug, getting her to the hospital for chemotherapy. Always another deadline, something to arrange, a problem to solve.

But the boys lived every day of it. And while I was caught up in the moment, they were watching in slow motion, each frame frozen in agonizing detail.

When they would act out or indicate neglect, I was frank in my plea to them. As harsh as this may sound, I can’t make you my priority right now. So, please, don’t insist on it. I love you and remain here for you, but my energies are focused on getting your mother healthy. She needs me like never before.

Not that they didn’t test me. Little things would conflate into big ones. The struggle over just getting to school on time became a flashpoint beyond reason, as the routines of everyday life from when to eat meals to whose authority to respect were suddenly up for negotiation.

My updates on their mother’s condition were rarely taken at face value. I was hiding something or spinning them, or worse, I was in the dark myself. In a near instant, the world was not what it used to be. It never would be. Nothing anyone did made much difference, not in stopping the cancer or even in managing the pain.

Still, when it became clear that she was not going to get better, she mustered her strength and invited the boys into our bedroom. It would be another 10 days before she died. But she said her goodbyes that night in the sanctity of our home and on her terms.

We all curled up on the thick, white sheets and fluffy down comforter, craving her every affection, tears streaming down our cheeks, incapable of saying much beyond “I love you.”

We knew this was one of life’s consequential moments, even if we did not wholly appreciate the finality of it.

Apart from the grief of a beloved spouse gone missing, a widow or widower has the institution of marriage to confront. Not just because you are suddenly without it, but with kids still at home, the marriage lives on in the world you’ve built as a family. The living room furniture you picked out together, the unfinished plans to remodel the kitchen, even who walks the dog in the morning, all residuals of a bygone bond.

Over the summer, we celebrated my middle son’s 16th birthday with a boxed cake I concocted with the help of his little brother and a tub of storebought frosting. Birthday cakes were his mother’s domain, and she made magnificent, artistic monuments to their lives, confections that told the story of the past year better than any journal entry or photo album. Mine was hardly that, but I did my best to keep my wife’s tradition alive, and with it, our marriage.

In a moment of despair, after every effort to save my wife had failed, her mother pulled me aside. I had never felt so helpless or inadequate, and she could see that. I may not recognize it now, she told me, but I had given my sons the greatest gift a father could give — the example of unconditional marital love.

What she didn’t say was that in providing that example, I was also inviting my sons into the inner chambers of my life. That is not something fathers normally do, at least not in the case of adolescent children. And once that door is open, it does not easily swing shut. That such an isolating time in my life that is, perhaps, not a bad thing. But this new order can take some getting used to. My mental health, social life, and work ethic are all fair game to my children. Is your belief in God shaken, Dad? Are you angry? How are you taking care of yourself?

On a visit to the doctor to get his flu shot, my 12-year-old lectured me on finding healthy ways to vent my sadness and frustration, gently pointing out that I might have come down too hard on his two brothers that weekend. To that same point, there was nearly a round of applause when I announced that I’d found a bereavement group I intended to stick with. You’ll like it, my youngest told me. Sometimes you just need to say whatever you want and not worry about it.

When I look back to the morning my wife died, it is now clear to me that my sons were well down this road, even then. That they recognized our family’s changed order and its consequences. As we were driving home from the hospice in exhausted silence, my oldest son, in the passenger seat, where his mom had always sat, turned to me, and then to his older brothers.

It is just the four of us now, he said. We’ll need to be here for each other.”

Thank you so much for that, Penn. That was really beautiful. What did it feel like to read?

Oh, it’s really — it’s poignant. To me, that is even richer than just sadness or tragedy because it contains, well, love, actually, is what it contains. It contains a lot of love.

After the break, Penn talks about unconditional love and learning how to say “I’m sorry” as a parent.

Penn, you just read Danny Murphy’s essay, “Watching Them Watching Me.” Did any part of this story in particular really resonate with you?

Yeah, for me, what he says about this gift that he’s unintentionally given his sons, that they’ve been able to glimpse something of unconditional love that he’s giving to their mother and that he’s also allowing them into, as he says, I think, the inner chambers of his heart or his life, which is not what fathers typically do, especially for adolescent sons. And I mean, oh, my goodness, that’s everything. That’s so uncannily beautiful. So beautiful.

That line, “I was inviting my sons into the inner chambers of my life. That is not something fathers normally do,” I want to ask, when you were a kid looking at your father, do you remember a moment where your father was open or vulnerable with you in the way the author of this essay is?

No, but I know that in some ways — I know that in his own way, he tried.

Can you say how you knew that?

I know it now. I’m not sure what I thought or knew then, but I know it now.

I mean, as a dad yourself now, do you remember a time where your kids saw you be vulnerable?

I have an interesting situation where I have a biological son and a stepson. And my stepson is — his father is very much in his life, so his father is his father, and I’m something else. So I have two different kind of parental roles. And then my biological son is only 3 and 1/2. So, that’s a very different thing, too. I’m going to need to be able to more consciously show him my vulnerability as he gets older in those years, you know?

I was going to say, your son is probably a little too young to perhaps register these moments of vulnerability from you now, but as you plan for childhood and teenagehood and adulthood and beyond, how were you thinking about incorporating vulnerability into your parenting?

Yeah, that’s a good question. Well, one would be to first understand what vulnerability is. Because we talk about it in a way that I think it’s often assumed that it’s just being — it’s like sharing a lot maybe or being open. And I don’t think that’s the — I actually think that the ways that I’m open are not always I have to tell you exactly what’s going on inside. It’s more like living it, demonstrating it.

Can you give me an example maybe of what that means? And again, I know that three is quite young, but I bet you’re still doing things even now to model how to interact with the world, how to interact with people. I would love an example, if you can think of one.

OK, well, first, I remember when my toddler started saying sorry.

Oh. [LAUGHS]

Like, I’m sorry. And yeah, that’s the right response because we, in our culture, say sorry all the time, and it’s meaningless. It’s like, oh, sorry. Oh, I’m right behind you. Sorry. Just sorry, sorry, sorry that. And then the first time you hear a little child, who’s learning words, anytime they say anything for the first time, you’re like, oh, that’s — you notice it’s the first time that word is being used.

So this little human saying sorry for the first time, I remember when he said it, it was like, oh. Like, you don’t need to be sorry about something, and I don’t recall exactly what it was. It weas something that was innocuous, but that, technically, was his fault. Like, maybe he — it wasn’t spilling because we don’t freak out about spills at all in our house. It was something small that none of us were upset about.

But he said sorry, and I think we were just like, oh, an apology is not needed. I remember just thinking to myself, let me reorient things so that you don’t have any compulsion to apologize when it’s not necessary.

And then furthermore, I remember the first time that I apologized to him.

[GASPS]: Tell me about it.

We were getting into the car, and he was being completely unreasonable as a toddler will be, you know? Like absolutely —

[LAUGHS]: Absolutely out of control three-year-old, yeah.

I mean, it’s just like, oh, you don’t want to do the thing that you just said you want to do because we’re doing it now? Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

You frickin’ maniac. If you translate that behavior to older people, it’s like, toddlers are just terrible people. But they’re not, of course. They’re not. This was actually the first time, really, more or less, the first time that I was becoming impatient with him.

He was 2 and 1/2 and, there was something around that age that changes, where they’re starting to just consciously defy you in a way that you can sometimes have nothing but patience and grace for. And then other times, it’s like we’re going to be 45 minutes late if you don’t — like, I know how this is going to go because I’m an adult, and you’re a stupid child.

And I have a watch. [LAUGHS]

And you’re saying no for no reason other than your brain doesn’t understand how to process your feelings any better than that.

Oh, my gosh.

And you want autonomy, but you don’t understand you’re not the center of the universe. And you know what I mean? It’s like, it’s just — if you look at it in a certain way, it’s a complete lose-lose. And if you get caught up in that, you can take it personally, and you can get really impatient and really angry with them. You really, really can, of course.

Absolutely.

And I was being short with him. I was like, well, we got to get you — I was just — I was being clipped. Because what had happened is I’d forced him into the car seat, and he was crying, but he’d stopped crying. And it was just like he looked kind of like devastated, you know?

Like, I’d broken his will somehow. And of course, this happens all the time, and they snap right back. And then I stopped for a moment, and I said, are you upset because I was being impatient with you? And he goes, yeah. And I said, I’m sorry. I’m really sorry for speaking to you that way. And that was for me, as a man and as a father, it was actually such a moving moment. And I was like, oh, I didn’t get that. That is really important, you know?

That, to me, is vulnerability. It’s not a bunch of sharing necessarily. It’s not even apologizing when you know it’s important. It’s meaning it. And it really was the first time, by the way. Like, that’s what’s so — I’ll always remember it.

We talk all the time about these moments where we realize our parents are human and make mistakes, too. And even though your son is maybe too young to completely understand your words or to remember this moment, I kind of feel like he’ll feel it in some way, you know?

That’s the thing. He won’t remember it, you’re right. There’s actually no neurological way he could ever remember it. He’ll only know it in his nervous system if he grows up with a father who keeps doing this.

Absolutely. I mean, it models for him how he can act in situations.

Yes, as he gets older.

I want to change gears somewhat and talk about another theme in the essay, this idea that we can’t protect kids from the hard stuff in life. The author, Dean E. Murphy, lost his wife, and his kids lost their mother. As much as he wanted to shield them from that pain, they still felt it so deeply. I wonder how you’re thinking about that in terms of your own child, the fact that you can’t protect him from the hard stuff.

Well, it’s impossible. In any other interview, if I just said this out of context, it would sound wild. But I think, in some ways, children should be accustomed to hardship.

Because they will encounter it, by the way. They will. And I actually think it’s more like, if we were to embrace reality, try to demonstrate unconditional love as much as we’re able, the truth is, is that in hardship, they would see vulnerability. They would see humility. They would see love from their family and friends. For whatever reason, those are the times that we seem to demonstrate it most.

You’re bringing up unconditional love again. And earlier, you talked about the part of the essay where the author’s mother-in-law tells him that he’s given his sons the greatest gift a father could give, which is an example of unconditional marital love. How do you think about unconditional love in your roles as a father and as a husband?

I think unconditional love is actually very hard and rare in a way. I think, for instance, with my wife, we’re learning to condition ourselves so that we can be unconditional, you know? Unconditional love, I don’t think, is ever just magically visited upon anybody. We say a parent’s love is unconditional. That’s actually not true.

It’s not true. It’s just not. It is conditioned quite often.

It just is. And that doesn’t mean you’re a bad person at all. Unconditional love is like — the author mentions God at some point. I’m personally spiritual and experienced God in my life and is part of my worldview. That’s the only love that’s unconditional, as I understand it. We’re learning and attempting to be unconditional. I really would want to interrogate anybody’s experience of so-called unconditional love because I think you, unfortunately, find a lot of conditions. [LAUGHS]

I think you’re articulating something really true, which is that love requires work, right? The author is giving his sons this model of unconditional love. But it’s not easy. There is so much effort there. There’s so much grief there. And even so, he still provides these moments of joy for his sons. He throws his son a birthday party. He decorates the cake.

To end on a bit of a lighter note, I wonder if there was a moment recently where you tried to give your child a moment of joy. It can be really small, even.

Yeah, I mean, that, especially with a toddler, is easy. That actually happens all the time.

Yeah, how gorgeous is that, huh?

Well, yeah, it is gorgeous. It’s a beautiful, beautiful dimension of life. There’s joy often, so often. I’ll actually switch to my 15-year-old for that one. Very recently, we had a rare kind of like bedtimes — and when you have such an age spread, it’s kind of hard to make time for everybody. And he’s older, and he doesn’t want to spend that much time with us anyway.

So this was like a night, an evening where I was sacrificing sleep after many nights of not much sleep, I think. Our littlest was sick, but it struck me, and I was like, hey, we need to watch a movie. We are going to watch “The Edge of Tomorrow” with Tom Cruise and Emily Blunt.

OK, I love —

And it is such a good action movie, like such a — you know what I mean? It’s like, there’s something — it’s the best that an action movie has to offer.

So you say to your 15-year-old, we need to watch this movie tonight.

Yeah, because it was just like we are going to have a great time together. And it was one of those very male — we didn’t talk that much because it was super late. And frankly, I was exhausted, and I was like, I’m going to get maybe four or five hours of sleep. And whatever. But I just knew it was important. It was like the stars had aligned so that my wife and youngest son were asleep, and I was just like, this is a good time to do this. You’re not going to play video games right now. We’re going to do this.

What did your 15-year-old think?

Well, he loved it. No, he loved it. And you want to talk about Modern Love. One of the ways you got to do that is watch things with people.

That is so sweet. I love that. You were like, dude, let me unlock the best film ever. I have to tell you, I had to covertly google it as you were speaking because I’ve never heard of it. But I need you to know that later, I will be watching this movie.

You’re welcome in advance.

Yeah. Thank you so much. And actually, that’s what I wanted to say. Penn Badgley, thank you so much for this conversation. Such a treat.

Oh, thank you for having me.

Listeners, check out Penn’s podcast called “Podcrushed.” It’s about embarrassing middle school memories. We all have them. It’s very funny, and it is available wherever you get your podcasts. Next week, I talk to actor and singer/songwriter Miya Hawke about what she wished her life would have looked like as a child of divorce.

I think the dream situation is captured by the film “Parent Trap.”

[LAUGHS]: Secret twin.

Yes, secret twin, get your parents back together.

“Modern Love” is produced by Julia Botero, Christina Djossa, Reva Goldberg, Davis Land, and Emily Lang, with help from Kate LoPresti. It’s edited by our executive producer, Jen Poyant. Special thanks to Paula Szuchman.

The “Modern Love” theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music by Pat McCusker. This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez. Our show is recorded by Maddy Massiello. Digital production by Mahima Chablani and Nell Gallogly. The “Modern Love” column is edited by Daniel Jones. Miya Lee is the editor of Modern Love projects. I’m Anna Martin. Thanks for listening.

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Hosted by Anna Martin

Produced by Julia Botero ,  Christina Djossa ,  Reva Goldberg and Emily Lang

Edited by Jen Poyant

Engineered by Daniel Ramirez

Original music by Pat McCusker

With Kate LoPresti

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‘i really would want to interrogate anybody’s experience of so-called unconditional love because i think unfortunately you find a lot of conditions.’.

Penn Badgley has made a career out of playing deeply troubled characters. From his role as Joe Goldberg on the Netflix series “You” to Dan Humphrey on “Gossip Girl , ” Badgley has shown many times over how obsession and delusion can destroy love.

In his personal life, though, Badgley says he’s not doing too much brooding. He’s a father and a stepfather, and he opens up about the importance of being vulnerable with his kids. Badgley reads “ Watching Them Watching Me ” by Dean E. Murphy, an essay about a father who can no longer hide his emotions from his sons after they all experience a devastating loss.

Links to transcripts of episodes generally appear on these pages within a week.

Modern Love is hosted by Anna Martin and produced by Julia Botero, Reva Goldberg, Emily Lang and Christina Djossa. The show is edited by Jen Poyant, our executive producer. The show is mixed by Daniel Ramirez and recorded by Maddy Masiello. It features original music by Pat McCusker. Our theme music is by Dan Powell.

Special thanks to Larissa Anderson, Kate LoPresti, Davis Land, Lisa Tobin, Daniel Jones, Miya Lee, Mahima Chablani, Nell Gallogly, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli, Nina Lassam and Julia Simon.

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] . Want more from Modern Love ? Read past stories . Watch the TV series and sign up for the newsletter . We also have swag at the NYT Store and two books, “ Modern Love: True Stories of Love, Loss, and Redemption ” and “ Tiny Love Stories: True Tales of Love in 100 Words or Less .”

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